The Bible is a collection of books selected BY MEN at a certain point in history. That is a fact. Other books available at the time is was written were omitted AT THE DISCRETION OF THOSE MEN. Thus, it is a composition weighed and evaluated BY MEN. Women were excluded from that process. What is contained in the Bible can not be described as "facts" by God. One can BELIEVE that what is written within it is true, but nothing more. That is the essence of "faith." A translation of an original is a translation of a work by one set of human by another set of humans. One of the things that differientiates you from a member of another religion is your belief in that work. And is it also not surprising that this work of MEN places power of MEN OVER WOMEN but NOT WOMEN OVER MEN. That is blatantly sexist! I don't think God is sexist but there is a huge mound of evidence that men are.

A necessary component of respect is equality. Once one spouse is given more power than the other (and we all know which one that is) the situation is no longer equal. It is in a state of imbalance by definition. She becomes a slave. And you are very correct, my relationship with God is DIRECTLY with God and not through a text and certainly not through the filter of men.

I find it strange (and telling) that there is an emphasis on submittion with the belief in religion. I don't think a just God would require it. I don't have to do so to treat others with respect, to love them and care for them, or to look beyond the pettiness people sometimes display. To me submittion and love are not apples and apples or even apples and oranges, but apples and a chair. They are not related. Organized denomination or the "church" talks a great deal about submittion because it controls the behavior of their followers - in theory. In truth, and I have seen this many many times, it only provides a moral "white-out" for indiscretions against others, a way out of guilt others seem to agree upon. I do not subscribe to such nonsense. I prefer to feel that guilt because guilt, like physical pain, alerts us to what we have done wrong to others. The only forgivness I seek is that of the person I have offended. THAT, in my opinion, is what God would want.

How did the topic of being a good Christian get skewed into women submitting to their husbands? I love my wife very much but I would never want her to "submit" to me. We have a great relationship built on cooperation and both taking the lead on issues that fit our strengths. Im better at laundry, cleaning, and grocery shopping and she is better with financial matter and making sure the bills get paid on time. She's a wonderful mother but we both share child rearing responsibilities. I don't feel my wife should submit to me at all, no matter if the bible tells her too or not. She is my equal and I value her opinion.

As far as the "Good Christian" thing goes. If you truly want to be a good christian, keeping with the word of the Gospels "Love your neighbor as you love yourself". Its that simple. Help when its needed no matter who it is, forgive completely and forgive often. Forget about past insults and injury. Give money to the poor and needy (EVEN IF YOU THINK THEY ARE JUST GOING TO BUY BOOZE AND DRUGS!). Jesus told us "He who is without sin, cast the first stone", we would all do well to remember those words in everything that we do.

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself". Its that simple. Help when its needed no matter who it is, forgive completely and forgive often. Forget about past insults and injury. Give money to the poor and needy (EVEN IF YOU THINK THEY ARE JUST GOING TO BUY BOOZE AND DRUGS!).

Well, just for argument's sake, couldn't an atheist or agnostic do all the things you've mentioned? I'm sure there are many people who are not Christians who are good to others, help their neighbors, try to forgive transgressions and ignore past hurts, share their money with those less fortunate. So obviously there has to be a religious aspect somewhere.

The subservient belief...that's just so...outdated. It reminds me of when women couldn't vote, were frowned on when they worked out of the home, were nothing more than people who lived in the shadow of men.

Of course for those couples who live that way and it works...more power to them. Who am I to question what dynamics work between a husband and wife? But a woman who is content to live as a less-than-equal partner in a marriage...well, that's a self-esteem issue for sure.

-nab

Interesting question-what makes a good Christian? I have been thinking about this one and have to flip it to "what makes a bad Christian?" Personally, I don't think you can group Christians as either "good" or "bad." Just that you are-a Christian that is. All it takes to BE a Christian is to have a belief in God, Believe that his son Jesus died on the cross for our sins, confess that you are a sinner and ask Jesus into your heart. So if you are a Christian-you can be neither a "good one" or a "bad one," just a forgiven one.

That is not to say that Christians don't do bad things. Everyone does-that is human nature, the sin nature from Adam and Eve. But if you are truly a Christian, then you will try to live your life to glorify His name. It is just something that comes with being saved, and unless you have experienced it, it is difficult to explain. Everyone will have differing opinions on what living a life for Christ is about, but I think most will agree that if you follow the 10 commandments, treat others as you would want to be treated, and borrowing this from Bobcat-ask yourself WWJD-then you are pretty much OK.

As for the submission part, if you look at the scriptures, Jesus tells the man to treat his wife as himself, to honor her, basically to put her on a pedestal. If you are doing that, then how can you treat someone subserviently? It is about mutual respect and love and commitment. Just as someone else said, there are things that my husband is better at than me, and vice a versa. I don't need his permission to do things, but because I do respect and love him, I value his opinion. And if it is something that he is totally against, then I will honor his opinion and rethink and not do whatever.

neverabridesmaid - 18 January 2008 06:17 PM

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself". Its that simple. Help when its needed no matter who it is, forgive completely and forgive often. Forget about past insults and injury. Give money to the poor and needy (EVEN IF YOU THINK THEY ARE JUST GOING TO BUY BOOZE AND DRUGS!).

Well, just for argument's sake, couldn't an atheist or agnostic do all the things you've mentioned? I'm sure there are many people who are not Christians who are good to others, help their neighbors, try to forgive transgressions and ignore past hurts, share their money with those less fortunate. So obviously there has to be a religious aspect somewhere.

The subservient belief...that's just so...outdated. It reminds me of when women couldn't vote, were frowned on when they worked out of the home, were nothing more than people who lived in the shadow of men.

Of course for those couples who live that way and it works...more power to them. Who am I to question what dynamics work between a husband and wife? But a woman who is content to live as a less-than-equal partner in a marriage...well, that's a self-esteem issue for sure.

-nab

Sure they could NAB. The message that Jesus brought wasnt just for Jews, or his sect of Judaism which became Christianity. It was meant for all people of all faiths and even those of no faith. Love everyone, regardless of their differences. He stressed the belief in the One God of Judaism, that when we do good things that the glory of that good deed goes to God. Some people choose not to believe in God, but that doesnt mean he doesnt exist. Some people believe in God but choose not to acknowledge him in their lives, but it doesnt mean he isnt working through them. God is there in everything that we do, whether we want him to be or not. Even in this tragedy with the 4 children. God is there.

You are either a christian or not a christian. It isn't about being a good one or bad one. Those are judgment labels. Everyone has their moments and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. In God's eyes, we are all as guilty as this man who threw his children off the bridge. God loved you enough to send His Son to take your place. When Jesus was nailed on the cross, my sins and your sins as well as the sins of Lam Luong were placed on Him. Even God the Father could not look on his Son. When Jesus died, our sins were with him. He went to hell with our sins upon him. He took the keys of death and resurrected to make a way for all of man. When I say "man", I don't mean gender but mankind. If you can believe this and confess your sins, you can be saved. How do you know if you are a christian? By the fruit you bear. An apple tree does not bear oranges.
I lost a daughter who was two at the time of her death. I have struggled with this everyday since her death. My faith has been shaken. I'm not what you would call a "good" christian. My wife goes to church with my other two children everytime the doors open. I have been probably 10 times in the last 7 years. I argue with God sometimes over what I think is "fair". I don't argue over things as trivial as if it's right or wrong for a wife to submit to her husband or is homosexuality a sin. The bible says that a woman IS to submit to her husband but it doesn't say that the husband is to treat her as a slave or a lesser. The bible tells how a man is to treat his wife but if you are blinded by your own self seeking righteousness, you will not read any further. Because the moment you find the error in God's word that you sought for in the first place, you will be satisfied that you can disregard His Word altogether. God does not condone homsexuality but if you want you can find a church that says it's OK. There will always be some who take only the parts of Gods word they can accept.
As I said before, I am probably not you would call a good christian and there maybe some who would say I'm not a christian at all. With that being said, I would not have a problem with Lam Loung dying a VERY LONG AND VERY PAINFUL DEATH. He said he wants to be famous. Then let his death be famous for it's cruelty.

atbman - 17 January 2008 09:42 AM

I wanted to post this thread to see how many different definitions people have on what is a "good christian".
I believe in the good lord, I try to keep from judging others, (which is very hard to do), I also believe in the golden rule and try to abide by it. I don't go to church or pray as often as I should. I try to help others when I can. I do loose my temper sometimes and feel guilty afterwards. SO...does this make me a "good christian" ?

Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one:

atbman - 17 January 2008 09:42 AM

I wanted to post this thread to see how many different definitions people have on what is a "good christian".
I believe in the good lord, I try to keep from judging others, (which is very hard to do), I also believe in the golden rule and try to abide by it. I don't go to church or pray as often as I should. I try to help others when I can. I do loose my temper sometimes and feel guilty afterwards. SO...does this make me a "good christian" ?

Ther are none of us good enough to be a good Christian. It is only through the blood of Jesus and by his
grace we are saved.


Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one: